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the definition of insanity — Dead Empress Backwater 
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Played by Cade who has 563 posts.
Dead Empress Backwater II. Leader
Eros Valle
Eros was positively dreading the coming month. It crept along his spine and burned at the back of his neck, a steady anxiety that was just building. The only thing that could help was having a plan, and ensuring that no matter what came, he didn't walk out the other side of it feeling responsible for the death of his own nephew, or worse.

He chose to seek out Viorel while the other was patrolling, thinking it was his best shot at giving them both the time and the privacy to really talk this out. After tracking his scent, he jogged the remaining distance between them, appearing at his co-leader's side with a smile that didn't last long. His features were quick to turn serious as he fell into step and looked forward.

"Hey. We uh, we need to talk. About, what can happen the coming moon."
Played by Ghost who has 672 posts.
Dead Empress Backwater I. Leader
Viorel Valle

Perhaps misreading the vibes, the leader used his tail to gently smack against his co-lead’s flank playfully when he saw the grin. Sometimes when his son joined him on his patrols it was just to chat and unwind and sometimes it was more serious work related. In this case given how the smile drained away to something more strained it was clear this was going to be the latter.

Viorel dropped the playful demeanor and nodded, humming to acknowledge that he had heard Eros and was thinking. The coming moon, it would be critical to set things out now given the disasters that had occurred last year. They continued walking before he finally spoke, ”Well as you know, both leaders have the right to breed and raise their litters within the pack. Were you planning on exercising your rights?” It felt a bit awkward to have this conversation with his son, but this is what happens when you lead alongside your children he supposed.

He kept walking, but yellow eyes glanced sideways at the man walking by his side, trying to gauge his reaction to the question. He had not known Eros to be an overly romantically inclined wolf, but now that he was a leader and a little bit older maybe things had changed.

[Image: s38i5ZS.png]
Played by Cade who has 563 posts.
Dead Empress Backwater II. Leader
Eros Valle
Viorel was quiet a moment, but seemed to be mulling over a thought or two. Eros waited, assuming this conversation would be difficult in the same ways for his father as it was for him. His own thoughts revolved around @Archer and all that happened in the fallout, of ensuring that the same did not happen with, say, @Oleander and @Sage. There had to be a way to do better, they couldn't let it become a pattern even if all the others decided to walk-back their morals. Eros and Viorel had to be the pillars.

But when his dad spoke up, illicit litters weren't the first thing he addressed, and the younger Valle realized just how little he'd thought about that other aspect of March, the intentional pregnancies that could come.

"Ew, no," came out of his mouth before he could stop it, features twisting briefly with a kind of disgust that spoke to his age before he could reign it in.

"I mean, I don't... have a partner or anything. No. That's not happening this year."

He knew better than to say he'd never want to have his own children, even though his gut was currently screaming 'never!' Who knew... for the right guy... But that wasn't pressing right now. He looked at Viorel from the corner of his eyes, nerves prickling again. This hadn't been a question for him before just now. Vanadis was gone.

"... what about you... ?"
(This post was last modified: Feb 21, 2024, 12:54 AM by Eros.)
Played by Ghost who has 672 posts.
Dead Empress Backwater I. Leader
Viorel Valle

The clear disgust on his son’s face and the automatic response took Viorel off guard and he couldn’t help but let out a loud chuckle. Well, that settled that then. He quickly smoothed his expression back into a contemplative one, especially since the next question was not an easy one to answer. His paws slowed a little as he mulled the words around, there was no easy way to respond.

Eventually he came to a full stop and let out a sigh that seemed to come from his toes, draining away the happy visage he was able to keep up the majority of the time. In its place there was a wolf who had been worn down by the world. He shrugged, ”I don’t know. I also don’t have a partner, but I recognize how important it is for the health and bonding of a pack to have a litter of cubs every year.” It might have been so simple as to give his litter away, let someone else raise their children but, ”After last year with Sharlee and Reade abandoning their litter I don’t think I’m comfortable allowing non-leaders to breed and I respect that you’re not ready…” He trailed off, the implications clear. Viorel felt like he had to, that it was his duty.

[Image: s38i5ZS.png]
Played by Cade who has 563 posts.
Dead Empress Backwater II. Leader
Eros Valle
'I don't know.'

Eros' stomach twisted horribly. His gaze snapped ahead, focused on not letting his features betray how he felt about the idea of his father moving on with someone new. Perhaps if it had been @Clover, but she had chosen to be with @Vayko for whatever reason. Who else even was there?

He had stopped alongside Viorel, but remained parallel as his dad continued. Did that mean he didn't want Ma having another litter either? He couldn't fight back a grimace as the other's voice faded out.

"... is it really?" he asked, voice quiet at the start, "That important, I mean? It's not like we won't have the yearlings around, and..."

There were so many reasons floating around in his head, but not all of them were mature or even sensical. When it boiled down to it, Viorel had the right to do whatever he wanted. Eros, though, was not ready for him to have more children either, especially like this. Without Mom, sounding like he didn't even want to...

What would that feel like, knowing you existed just out of obligation?

"I don't... I don't think that's really fair. To you."
(This post was last modified: Feb 21, 2024, 02:49 AM by Eros.)
Played by Ghost who has 672 posts.
Dead Empress Backwater I. Leader
Viorel Valle

The leader could see that his son was not taking this conversation all that well - and that was truly how it felt in this moment. It was a fine line they danced, between co-leads and father and son, what had started as a conversation between heads of the pack felt like it was slowly blurring the lines. Yellow eyes watched the grimace on Eros’ face and allowed silence to stretch between them as he thought about picking his next words very carefully.

He shifted on his paws before beginning, ”Being a leader isn’t always fair, unfortunately.” Wasn’t that the truth? ”It’s not just about this year and having yearlings, but the following year, and the ongoing legacy of the Backwater.” His voice was a little softer now, ”But, if you are more comfortable handing out a total breeding ban to the pack - including ourselves - I will back you up on it, just think about it before you make a final decision.” Viorel did not even think that he would have necessarily had a litter anyways, it wasn’t like there was a woman in his life, except Clover and Vayko would kill him. If Eros really wanted him to abstain, he would do so.

That brought them to the next part of the discussion, ”And, if you are decreeing a breeding ban we need to discuss what the… punishment will be if someone breaks the pack law.” Yellow eyes watched his co-lead closely now, watching for even the slightest change in expression.

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Played by Cade who has 563 posts.
Dead Empress Backwater II. Leader
Eros Valle
The ongoing legacy. Eros had never considered his place in that part of all that, never thought it would have even fallen on him to start. His father was right that it couldn't be this way every year, but that also brought his thoughts back to Clover and Vayko. He shifted on his paws, starting to realize that this was probably a conversation that could be had for hours. A luxury they didn't have.

A total breeding ban. Why'd that sound so, bad? What if they all pushed against him for it, felt leadership was trying to be too controlling? There were so many ways each and every choice could go, and he couldn't see the future, could only try his best and hope for the same in return, but that was so much easier to recognize than to actually move forward with.

And, of course, there was the bit he'd most been wanting to discuss, now muddied with fresh doubts. Eros took a deep breath, and let out a heavy sigh.

"Okay. I've got a lot of thoughts. Uh."

Peach eyes blinked, mind clearly a whir behind them. That Viorel wouldn't seek out a new mate so quickly was a relief, but that feeling also came with a gouging of guilt.

"First... I wouldn't ever say I wanna ban you from it. I- if something happens and that's what you want, that's always your choice."

He would deal with the fallout of his own feelings, knew deep down that eventually Viorel might have to move on to find true happiness again. That benefit for his father would be the balm to Eros' sour emotions. But not just because he felt the pack expected it of him, not just mashing together whatever he could to force another half-family to work.

"Also, I guess... I just assumed Ma would get to have more litters, if she wanted."

Eros was on the fence on whether to push this point or not. Maybe Clover didn't even want to breed this year, but, what if she did? It wasn't her fault the accident had happened, and she had never not shown them that she could be trusted. She'd even taken on Sharlee's litter, and Eros didn't feel it was her fault that only Jacynth remained. Yet, they were reaching so many anniversaries marking great losses... he couldn't fault Viorel for wanting to mitigate.

"But for those that break the rules... I don't know entirely, but... Like if we let in some stranger and they dick around, fuck 'em, right? But I don't... We have to learn from Andy."

His gaze dodged toward his father, his nephew not something they had really talked about. He'd given Viorel the news and he had soon after just, walked away. Eros hadn't tried to bring the subject up again, until now.

"I know they made the decision in the first place, to get pregnant knowing the consequences and still not-", he exhaled sharply from his nose, cutting himself off and continuing with the point, "but that proved they aren't going to make the right choices for their kids they just created, so why would we expect them to do any differently going forward? And I know you gave Kat a chance to stay but the way- I mean like..."

Another breath to calm his nerves. This was turning into rambling, and so he jumped to the end.

"I don't think we should kick out anyone carrying family. I think we need to find a way to expose them to life without a pack as much as possible without risking losing the kids. I want the parents punished for being so selfish, not the pups."
(This post was last modified: Feb 25, 2024, 09:18 PM by Eros.)
Played by Ghost who has 672 posts.
Dead Empress Backwater I. Leader
Viorel Valle

Eros had a lot of thoughts, and seeing the way that his son’s mind began to work to word them brought a proud smile to the Valle man’s eyes. So much had changed in the last two years and to see him think things through as an empathetic and strategic leader felt like maybe Viorel had done something good in his life. But, that quickly got ground to a halt when the younger leader brought up Andy and suddenly the salt and pepper wolf felt like he had been struck hard across the face.

The smile wiped away, and pain in his eyes he was silent, waiting for his son to finish his rambling and even after that. He needed to answer each point, and the first word was flat, ”No.” Then he forced himself to expand, ”Clover is no longer leader and doesn’t have the right. As it is, she’s still injured and Vayko is…..well, he’s Vayko.” He loved his cousin and they were family, but he would be lying if he said there wasn’t some distance between them now, a lack of trust. Frankly, Viorel thought that Clover deserved better than the surly, sarcastic, quick tempered man. So, maybe it was less about keeping Clover from breeding but instead about stopping his cousin. He wasn’t ready to say that part out loud so he quickly moved along.

The next topic was not any easier and he kind of felt like he might throw up, but swallowed it down hard. Exhaling sharply he asked, ”Is there something you had in mind?” He wasn’t in the business of trying to punish innocent children, and had thought that he had offered a way of punishing only the parents last year and it had not gone all so well. ”It’s a hard balance to walk, having punishments for the laws we set so that our decrees aren’t just empty threats but living with the consequences of what that might mean.” It weighed on him, heavily, almost every single day. But that was his job, and this was what he had signed up for.

[Image: s38i5ZS.png]
Played by Cade who has 563 posts.
Dead Empress Backwater II. Leader
Eros Valle
Eros had feared that bringing up what had happened to Archer's small family would cut too deeply, but how could they have this conversation without revisiting what went wrong the year before? They couldn't just forget, Eros refused to, and for so many reasons. The banishment of his parents was not what killed Andy, but he still knew, deep in his heart, that he had not protected him, nor his niece, as an uncle should. That was on him, not his brother or Kateri. This time, his priorities would be different, and that would probably make this a lot more work, but living up to all he owed his nephew was worth it.

'No.'

His ears swept back and his gut twisted, thinking the conversation had taken an even worse turn than he'd thought upon reading his father's features. It was almost a relief then, when Viorel continued on about Mama Clo. They did have five kids, and it seemed that his dad was willing to find common ground on the ousting issue. Eros felt better conceding the point. If Ma did feel put out, she'd talk to him and they could work something out for next year anyway, right?

'It’s a hard balance to walk, having punishments for the laws we set so that our decrees aren’t just empty threats but living with the consequences of what that might mean.'

Eros watched the ground as he absorbed that, recognizing it as a large part of what he'd been wrangling with while trying to think his way through all of this. It always came back to the same answer.

"... there's some consequences I'm not willing to live with, not from my choices. If Andy hadn't died, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Archer and Kateri deserved to get pushed out of the pack, and so does anyone else that pulls the same dumb shit. But..." damnit, he hadn't wanted to get emotional, but his eyes were starting to burn and his voice threatened to waver. Not only were his feelings about all of this strong, but he never got to let them out. It would always hurt someone else if he did, so he kept them stuffed down inside.

"Andy didn't deserve it. When he got sick, I should have been there."

His fangs grit hard enough to hurt to keep himself from crying, claws pressing down against the frozen ground.

"Maybe nothing would have saved him but I still should have been there."

Eros bit down hard enough around those last few words that spots of white flickered across his vision. He shut his eyes tight, and took a deep, slow breath in and out to gather himself again. When he spoke again, it was when he was sure his words would be steady.

"... and I chose not to be. So if I could do it again, and if it came to that with Archer, it can come to that with anyone, I'd rather see... some kind of shunning, I guess is the right word? They can live like Inger did, on the outskirts. The pack doesn't help them, they're barely in our sphere of protection, but they are still there. We know where the kids are, and we can step in at any moment if they need us. And... if they still want to take their kids and leave... I'd hope to the fuckin' moon they'd still be okay but at least then it won't ever be us that chose not to protect them."
(This post was last modified: Feb 27, 2024, 03:52 AM by Eros.)
Played by Ghost who has 672 posts.
Dead Empress Backwater I. Leader
Viorel Valle

The salt and pepper leader had to wrestle with his first reaction which was defensiveness, as if Eros was accusing him of being the reason why Andy had died. Like Viorel was happy living with the consequences of his own actions, like anybody was proud of the outcomes of that day. He wasn’t, he was sure that Archer wasn’t either. But, he took a long slow breath instead of lashing out and pushing his partner away. He was learning, he was growing, little by little.

Eros continued talking, clearly displaying that he blamed himself and the father opened his mouth as if to interject but instead closed it, allowing his son to continue. In the end he only said quietly, ”that burden is not yours to bear, it’s mine. And it’s Archer’s and Kateri’s.” Eros had been just reaching adulthood and he didn’t hold the same position he did now. Archer and Kateri had been the ones to break pack law, and Viorel had been the one to decide to banish them and neither of them had come back when Andy got sick. Eros was just another wolf hurt in the fallout.

He hummed again before answering, ”Inger wasn’t exactly an outsider, she still had people delivering food and checking on her and had the protection of the pack, but I don’t want to have the blood of any more children on my paws.” Sephrina and Andy were more than enough. But, it gave him an idea, ”I propose that the fathers are ousted, and mothers demoted to lowest until their children can be weaned. At that time the children can remain in the pack and the mother must leave, but both parents are allowed to return to visit their children as often as they would like.” That way the parents were punished, but the children could still be safe. He looked at his son, waiting to see if this would be an acceptable compromise.

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